If we're judging by sales, Thriller is 5x better than HIStory, but we all know we can't judge the quality by the sales, seeing as Michael's reputation had gone down a lot by 1995, and many people didn't wanna pony up the dough for a disc of old material (Disc 1). Also, Thriller had a 13 year head start, as well as having a larger impact on the music world, since the expectations from Michael were much higher in 1995, than they were in 1982.

In my opinion, Michael's albums are Dangerous > Bad > HIStory > Thriller > Invincible > Off The Wall. This thread is not intended to rank Michael's albums on a scale like that, but I would like to hear people's opinions on whether HIStory is better than Thriller, or not? Looking at the two albums, Michael had different images on the respective release dates. Michael wouldn't release a song like 2 Bad or TDCAU in 1982, just like he wouldn't release Baby Be Mine in 1995. Whether you prefer HIStory or Thriller is of course also a question as to what music genres you generally prefer.

While a lot of people put HIStory down for songs like This Time Around, D.S., HIStory, Money (which I personally like very much), 2 Bad (another favorite) and Little Susie (requires a lot of listening before you get into it), they tend to forget, that Thriller only has 9 tracks, while HIStory has 15. When making a long album, there's bound to be more songs that people dislike, but when looking at the percentages, it's roughly the same. Counting the bad* songs, there are 2 on Thriller (Baby Be Mine, Lady In My Life), 2/9=22%. HIStory (some people rate the bad songs differently, but there are in average 4 bad songs on HIStory), 4/15=27%. While the above mentioned songs are a part of the album, I tend to focus on the songs I like. While I miss the energy present in P.Y.T, the uniqueness (can't put my finger on what's so good about it) of Human Nature, and a pure rock song like Beat It, HIStory has a lot to offer. Scream is just awesome, TDCAU as well. Some people say Earth Song, Childhood and You Are Not Alone are too saccharine, but listen to The Girl is Mine, and these three fade in sugar coat-y-ness. "I'm a lover, not a fighter" - please...

Come Together and Smile, while covers, are extremely well executed. Smile is beyond beautiful, and Come Together has nice vocalization as well. Tabloid Junkie's constant "bom-bom-whoo" in the background, rocking chorus and perfect beat boxing, makes it a very underrated song. The "they say he's homosexual" part is, in my opinion, an original twist. Many of the songs on HIStory are fueled by emotions caused by the 1993 allegations, and while D.S. is horribly repetitive, and has pretty weak lyrics (Oh no, MJ called me a cold man!! *cries*) :unsure:, it still has a catchy beat to it. This Time Around and Money are actually pretty good songs when you "get to know them". Of course, the final showdown. Billie Jean vs Stranger in Moscow. I personally prefer SIM, but I have full understanding for people who like Billie Jean best.

I doubt many will read my full rant, but try and argue for your choice, rather than just posting "I like xxx best". Go! :D

*The songs are not bad, but they're just not as good as the rest.

I like HIStory better because of the personal depth- so many great songs but also a few shiit ones (nevertheless I still regard it as my favourite). Thriller is funky. But if i want art- I listen to History.

No way! HIStory is not a good album. I prefer Off the Wall from Thriller.

^^^ Ditto.

I appreciate the vulnerability on HIStory...but nothing pales in comparison to OTW or Thriller IMHO.

Thriller is obviously a great album, but it was the timing and music videos that made it so huge. There are a few things that made Thriller a success.

1) The Motown 25 Performance

2) Thriller was the first album to get promoted with creative music videos.

3) The Moonwalk

4) Michael crossed over to a white audience with "Beat it," which resulted in both white and black fans buying the album. At this point, MJ was no longer really considered a "black" artist, he was a global phenomenon.

5) The album Thriller has something on it for everyone. There are dance tracks, (Wanna be startin somethin, Thriller,) there are funk numbers (PYT, Billie Jean) pop songs (The girl is mine, Baby Be Mine, Human Nature) an explosive rock song, (Beat it) and there's a soulful R&B ballad (The lady in my life) The Thriller album was Michael's most diverse album up to this point in his career. Cameos by Paul McCartney, Vincent Price and Eddie Van Halen certainly helped out.

Now, despite those 5 elements that made Thriller a success, I have doubts that the album alone would have become the biggest selling album of all time. The music is great, but it was MJ's videos, showmanship and newly found global appeal that allowed Thriller to really take off like it did.

Personally, I think Michael improved after Thriller. In my opinion, the songs, videos and choreography during the Bad era was better than Thriller. However, people had already seen MJ's breathtaking moves and videos, so the Bad era offered nothing new (aside from MJ's first solo tour.) It was something we had seen before, so it wasn't considered innovative and groundbreaking, despite how great the music and videos were.

HIStory has been considered Michael's most diverse album by a lot of fans, and I don't disagree. It's also his most personal album. Like Thriller, HIStory has something for all fans. (Hip hop, rock, pop, soul, and even classical) Michael's vocals were also excellent on this album.

I love both albums, but if I had to choose which one I like better, I would roll with Thriller. There are only 9 songs on Thriller, which reduces the chances of filler. I can listen to Thriller all day and never skip a track. HIStory has great songs too, and is even more diverse than Thriller, but with 15 long tracks on the album, there are songs you might indeed skip from time to time.

I know I might catch fire from Pompous Git on this, but I feel that "Stranger in Moscow" is an updated "Human Nature." "Stranger" is a great song, but many of MJ's pop ballads after the Thriller album follow the blueprint of "Human Nature." (For all time, Stranger in Moscow, Fall again, Don't walk away, etc)

Thriller was more original, which is why I give it the nod.

HIStory is a great album, and probably more revealing about Michael than any interview with him has ever been.

But, it I think it could lose a few tracks.

Whereas with Thriller there are 9 tracks and 7 hits. I may be a bit tired of most of those songs, but they're all still being played...it clearly has more staying power than HIStory...and that's clearly a fact, because if I go up yo someone and say "DS" they're likely to say "What?"...but if I go up to someone and say "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'". they're likely to know what I'm talking about (as shown when Chip Esten used it in the "song titles" round of WLIIA)

I know Gary's going to come on in a minute and say "Thriller has filler too"...and I just want to say in advance...one man's filler is another man's masterpiece and dig out ye olde Human League/Don't You Want Me example...Phil Oakey hated the song and thought it was a bit of a filler ditty, he fought against it being released as a single. Eventually, the record company released it anyway and it became not only their biggest hit, but one of the most instantly recognisable pop songs of all time.

I'll post my thoughts sometime tomorrow, but I gotta say Thriller has some serious fluff and filler on it. As does OFTW. Personally, I can lose a handful of tracks from both early 1980s MJ albums since there's only a handful I really rate as amazing/excellent songs while the rest would be nothing without MJ's vocals.

Jam - I've always thought of Human Nature during the SIM 'How does it feel?' part. I can appreciate the melody is king aspect, but SIM is the superior track. I find the HN album version to be boring really.

And, yes, HIStory is a far better suprerior record than Thriller. HIStory's sales are actually far more impressive than Thriller's for the following reasons:

1 - Sold in the aftermath of the 1993 allegations and for the first time MJ had serious haters. Thriller was helped along by a tidal wave of love - proof is the Pepsi accident helped that record sell 7million in the USA alone; not the music. ;)

2 - HIStory's price was twice the price of every single AND double album on the market at the time, but still outsold everyone worldwide to make MJ the best selling male artist of the year.

Those two reasons significantly make me respect HIStory's sales tally, especially in the aftermath of a media/public no longer wholeheartedly supporting MJ the way they did so unquestionably in 1984. HIStory's is truly impressive - no other artist has done that after such a damaging and serious accusation. Even more incredible when we realise what the media coverage was like throughout 1993/94.

Plus, HIStory's musical composition showed MJ was far more aware of the impact of the structure of music on a listener. They had raw power - something that had been absent from MJ's work, save for notable examples, e.g. Billie Jean, Dirty Diana, Who Is It, give In To Me, Leave Me Alone, Beat It, WBSS. Michael truly progressed as a songwriter.

Thematically, HIStory is also much more diverse than any of his records - practically all of Thriller is all about love. HIStory goes way beyond anger when it comes to its multiple themes.

HIStory it is! Can't stand Thriller's hype which it seems no one is allowed to remotely question.

I think Off the Wall is pretty shiit personally.

EDIT: I wholeheartedly take this statement back. Took a while for the funk to grow on me.

^^^Aside from a couple of great songs - DSTYGE, Working Day & Night (best track!) and RWY. Those are the only ones the public/non-fans seem to know when i ask.

Thriller - all they seem to know is pretty much Billie Jean. Hum a bit of Beat It and they claim to know that! :laugh: Thriller is a given. Really, they don't talk about the songs so much cos it's really all about the VIDEOS.

When I play bits of HIStory, their eyes go wide in astonishment cos they thought MJ could only do the stuff on OFTW/Thriller. Easy listening filler with the occasional killer track.

How is original defined? HIStory is IT totally - from TDCAU to the Titletrack via Little Susie and beyond...utterly unique. Tabloid Junkie is genius although some don't like the attacking style of music which replicates the newspaper conveyor belt, machine guns and incessant knocking on the door!

I mean, Jesus! So much going on in HIStory and it's great stuff.

^^ ONLY in your opinion.

I like History a lot (disc 2 I mean) but it does have some complete tat on it too. DS, This Time Around, Childhood? No thanks. I only started to like 2Bad when I saw it used in the dance section of Ghosts. Hated it with a passion before then, still don't care that much for it now.

Thriller is a bit over rated as an album, in my opinion. Could do without Baby Be Mine, Human Nature, and The Girl is Mine especially. But I do love that funky Quincy Jones sound, with the horn sections etc.

Thriller has like... 2 fillers but I don't even consider them less than great.

HIstory has so much crap on it. D.S is one of the worst songs I've EVER heard, This Time Around is excessively repetitive and has a shiit melody and more...

^^ Totally agree with This Time Around. One I really do not like, and it is repetitve.

HIStory doesn't have so much crap. :blink: I like DS, but I wouldn't say it's his best and definitely not his worse (see Invincible for that!) Childhood is musically sound and complete, but clearly not to everyone's liking. CT could've been chopped, but hey, it's hardly crap. I used to hate TTA, but I actually like it - this is HIStory's Why You Wanna Trip (this track seems to be hated by fans a lot, no idea why). HIStory is anything but crap - that is an amazing song...clearly musically it is a pretty good track.

Thriller literally is Filler - Baby Be Mine is nice, but forgettable. Girl Is Mine - utter tripe even MJ isn't happy with it. PYT - fun, nice, but forgettable. Lady In My Life - ok track, just has excellent vocals. Human Nature - nice, forgettable, but excellent vocals. Thriller - cheesy, irritating song.

Beat It - crap as an album track as it's far too big and overshadows much of the record. Billie Jean - crap as an album track and overshadows everything. These two are Thriller's pieces of sheer genius.

Overall, I reckon Thriller is a pretty good record. Definitely better than Off The Wall.
Ah well, the poll is tied - no landslide for Thriller the Filler like I would've thought given it's insane hype. :ohmy:

^^ Again, you're forgetting that what you say is ONLY your opinion. :whistle:

Beat It (in my opinion) is a terrible album track - but an amazing live track when done in one of his shows. :ohmy:

Go figure! :laugh:

I'd be amazed if anyone truly thought Beat It is a great album track! :ohmy: It is more suited to a concert than an album. Billie Jean is the same.

^^^

Yea, but if it wasn't on the album, he probably wouldn't do it in concert because he doesn't tend to do "rarities"...so it would have to be on an album to be used in concert.

Not the first person in that vicious circle and won't be the last.


Thriller literally is Filler - Baby Be Mine is nice, but forgettable. Girl Is Mine - utter tripe even MJ isn't happy with it. PYT - fun, nice, but forgettable. Lady In My Life - ok track, just has excellent vocals. Human Nature - nice, forgettable, but excellent vocals. Thriller - cheesy, irritating song.

Beat It - crap as an album track as it's far too big and overshadows much of the record. Billie Jean - crap as an album track and overshadows everything. These two are Thriller's pieces of sheer genius.

Overall, I reckon Thriller is a pretty good record. Definitely better than Off The Wall.



If they're so forgettable, why do they still get so much airplay?

I have heard PYT, Human Nature and the Girl is Mine on the radio/in shops recently.

Never heard D.S. or This Time Around on the radio/in shops.

And Thriller is the unofficial anthem of Halloween...not Scream...

I'd rather listen to Girlfriend/The Girl is Mine than D.S the lamest song ever.

TTA is weak. What happened to his brilliant melodies?

I'd be amazed if anyone truly thought Beat It is a great album track! :ohmy: It is more suited to a concert than an album. Billie Jean is the same.

No, the point I was making was, it's strange how a track which is kind of s**t on the album actually ends up being pretty bloody good when done in concert. The same song, done the same way, but live (certain vocals aside). I hate it on the album, but I totally rocked to it when I saw him doing it live. :huh: :laugh:

No, the point I was making was, it's strange how a track which is kind of s**t on the album actually ends up being pretty bloody good when done in concert. The same song, done the same way, but live (certain vocals aside). I hate it on the album, but I totally rocked to it when I saw him doing it live. :huh: :laugh:

I'm the same with Dancing In The Dark.

Although, admittedly, I don't Bruce does any song exactly how it is on the record.

^^ Yeah, I remember you saying how much you dislike Dancing In The Dark as a record. :laugh:

Weird isn't it, s**t album tracks can sometimes be belters live on stage.

^^ Yeah, I remember you saying how much you dislike Dancing In The Dark as a record. :laugh:

Weird isn't it, s**t album tracks can sometimes be belters live on stage.

I guess part of it is how crazy people go when they hear the hits...

If everyone around you is loving it...you're likely to love ot too...

Which is true if you're there soaking up the atmosphere at a show...does it work if you're just sitting there watching it on the telly though? :hmm: Not sure about that one really...

I like HIStory because its the first casette i got, and that what made me like Michael. But I have to say Thriller because i know all the songs on it lol + sales.

Which is true if you're there soaking up the atmosphere at a show...does it work if you're just sitting there watching it on the telly though? :hmm: Not sure about that one really...

That's a good point.

But the band feed off the audience...so I suppose if the audience are intense it rubs off on the band...if the band are intense it makes the performance more exciting whether you're watching it steamin' and screamin' in front of your naked eyes or on TV...

I'm pretty sure I could google some tests that have been done on this.

^^ Maybe, maybe. Well, google away then. :wink:

The only thing for me which isn't crap about the album Beat It is the Van Halen solo. I heard it without the other backing on Youtube the other day, just the solo on it's own. It just makes the hairs on your arms stand up, seriously. I hate to say it, but that tiny piece of guitar work is the best thing about Beat It (in my opinion!). And Jennifer Batten re-creating that onstage, is also bloody awesome. :D

I'd rather listen to Girlfriend/The Girl is Mine than D.S the lamest song ever.

TTA is weak. What happened to his brilliant melodies?

Nah, the lamest song ever is on Invincible - toss up between YAML and TLC for many. ;)

TTA wasn't even written by Michael. Bruce Swedien, Rene Moore and Dallas Austin wrote it - two of the same people also co-wrote Jam. Michael simply wrote some lyrics for TTA. Once again proves that the best songs on an MJ album are always his own solo songs.

^^ Not necessarily. Man In The Mirror? :whistle:

If they're so forgettable, why do they still get so much airplay?

I have heard PYT, Human Nature and the Girl is Mine on the radio/in shops recently.

Never heard D.S. or This Time Around on the radio/in shops.

And Thriller is the unofficial anthem of Halloween...not Scream...

Because those are the easy listening tracks and made to be completely radio friendly. Just cos it's played on the radio doesn't make it a better song than one that isn't played. Radio only seem to play songs that are easy to enjoy and listen to. Those tracks are fluff and fluff goes down well with zero mastication. ;)

And, of course, Thriller seems to remind the general public of a Michael Jackson before he went mad and turned white. Dangerous and HIStory are his best, diverse and most creative albums, but those have a heavy stigma against them in the public's mind. Off The Wall and Thriller don't - the fact he was black, seemed normal goes in it's favour as the public think of that time as uncomplicated. In any case, says little about the artistic merit or compositional excellence of any track or album.

Why would Scream ever be a Halloween song?? :blink: Far too serious for that and is clearly not about Halloween.

Thriller is clearly remembered far more for the videos. Of the songs that are cited as being genius songs, only Billie Jean makes the cut - now there's a song with depth that's not fluff. Thriller is over rated as a record.

^^ Not necessarily. Man In The Mirror? :whistle:

An exception, isn't it? The music is good, but take away those vocals...and it really is **** cos the vocals is where it's at! Really didn't like Siedah's version.

Bad was odd - the best track for most people is the one he didn't write. For the others, it's one he wrote himself.

^^ I absolutely disagree about "taking the vocal out of MITM and it's sh*te." I think it works very well as an instrumental. Point is though, MJ didn't write it as you very well know. :wink:

Because those are the easy listening tracks and made to be completely radio friendly. Just cos it's played on the radio doesn't make it a better song than one that isn't played. Radio only seem to play songs that are easy to enjoy and listen to. Those tracks are fluff and fluff goes down well with zero mastication. ;)

And, of course, Thriller seems to remind the general public of a Michael Jackson before he went mad and turned white. Dangerous and HIStory are his best, diverse and most creative albums, but those have a heavy stigma against them in the public's mind. Off The Wall and Thriller don't - the fact he was black, seemed normal goes in it's favour as the public think of that time as uncomplicated. In any case, says little about the artistic merit or compositional excellence of any track or album.

:toofunny:

I love how you always rise to it...


Why would Scream ever be a Halloween song?? :blink: Far too serious for that and is clearly not about Halloween.

Ice Cream Man is clearly not about ice cream.

Boxing gloves, lads? :wink:

Quit winding each other up now. :whistle:

Neither of them are.

OFF THE WALL, motha*****s. :laughing:

Michael's best songs aren't always his own, IMO. The Lost Children speaks for itself :lol: There have been many many great tracks written for Michael- Rock With You, Lady In My Life, etc.

For me, it's Thriller. Thriller is a far more consistent album, no fillers, all killer tracks and all brilliantly sung and played. I feel like it was his last 'pure album' meaning the tracks were all done with real instruments, no digital loops, samples and so forth. It's pure heaven to listen to.

Thriller no filler?? The only killers there are MJ's songs - that's it. Billie Jean is THE killer and the rest - may as well forget them next to that.

Best songs on MJ's album do tend to be his own. TLC is far from teh best on invincible but speechless probably is up there.

In my opinion, there are no fillers on Thriller. :)

Clearly Michael intention too :yes:

Honestly there were no "fillers" in either OTW or Thriller, lol. :lol:

That is purely a matter of CD's not being available at the time, just like Michael wanted a lot more songs on Bad, but LP's/cassettes limited him, CD's allowed longer records.

I see a lot of TLC, YAML etc. bashing. I realize that these songs seem way too sugarcoated and overplayed to be real, and I admit they are kinda cheesy, and if any other artist made songs like these, I'd probably laugh. But because I know how Michael feels about children, and how much of his life he dedicated to helping them, I really feel something special for these songs.

Tis a difficult one.

If you want to listen to 40 minutes of sublime, carefree, life-affirming music you can't go wrong as to stick Thriller on and groove.

I think as fans we underrate Thriller, as it's the Jackson stuff that gets played the most on radio & TV wwe rarely feel the need to put it on preferring to play less well know stuff like Dangerous & HIStory.

However, whenever I do play it (and this goes for Off The Wall as well), I'm always amazed about how good it is.

There is no filler on Thriller (there's a T shirt slogan for you!). 9 almost perfect songs. Not one bad track. Back in the day when MJ didn't feel the need to pad his albums out.

And this brings me to the problem with HIStory. I said in a recent thread recently how if you took out HIStory's filler you have a sublime album.

The decision to marry disc two up with disc one by having 15 tracks was poor. He should have left off This Time Around, Money, Childhood, Come Together and the awful D.S. and kept them for B sides. This would have not only made the album better but also given people more reason to buy the singles.

A 10 track album of: Scream, TDCAU, Stranger in Moscow, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Tabloid Junkie, 2 Bad, HIStory, Little Susie and Smile is a pretty perfect album.

The quality of Earth Song, Smile, 2 Bad, Little Susie, SIM & TDCAU is outstanding. HIStory boasts some of his best non-single work ever (Little Susie, 2 Bad).

I'm actually amazed by it too. Playing all nine tracks back to back, you feel like you're in a daze or something. I end up skipping most of HIStory though. :unsure:

Back in the day when MJ didn't feel the need to pad his albums out.

OTW had 10, and Thriller 9. This is a moot point, since I already mentioned CD's weren't invented. I also said that Michael stated he wanted far more than 10/11 tracks on Bad.

Thriller is definitely better than HIStory.

I guess it's because I could actually listen to Thriller all the way from beginning to end *something I've only done a handful of times with HIStory*. It has a lot to do with the fluff that HIStory has. There's a number of songs on HIStory which I just can't stand *D.S., Come Together, Childhood, HIStory, Little Susie, and Smile*......the only song I can't stand on Thriller is "The Girl Is Mine".

In my lifetime, I've *unfortunately* never heard a HIStory song on the radio. From Thriller I've heard Billie Jean, Beat It, Human Nature, and the title track. I wish United States radio stations would vary their MJ play lists. It would help clear up the misconception that Michael's best accomplishment is the Thriller album *which it isn't, to be honest*.

In the grand scheme of things:

Off the Wall: Excellent
Thriller: Excellent
Bad: Excellent
Dangerous: Excellent
HIStory: Good
Invincible: So-So

Where I'm at this is what they play:

Billie Jean
Human Nature
Thriller
The Lady in My Life
The Girl is Mine
P.Y.T. (Pretty Young Thing) - mostly that song
Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
Beat It

----
Pretty much the whole album except for Baby Be Mine.

^^ Aww no love for "Baby Be Mine" :(

I meant what I heard on the radio. :happy:

I've heard:
ABC
Blame It On The Boogie
Billie Jean
The Way You Make Me Feel
Remember The Time
Black or White
Stranger In Moscow
They Don't Care About Us

on the radio, but then again, then don't play MJ a lot :sad:

I agree with Santiago on the fact that Thriller isn't his best accomplishment, but I disagree with the statement that OTW is better than HIStory ;)

To be more specific, I've heard the following on local radio stations:

Don't Stop Til You Get Enough
Rock With You
Billie Jean
Thriller
Beat It
Human Nature
The Way You Make Me Feel
Black or White
Butterflies (the R&B stations love it)
Heaven Can Wait

47 Hot 100 songs to his credit and ^ is all they play.

Lame.

Not trying to go off-topic but James Brown had like 114 R&B hits and about 100 pop hits and do you know what they play:

Please, Please, Please
Try Me
Papa's Got a Brand New Bag
I Got You (I Feel Good)
It's a Man's World
Cold Sweat
I Got the Feelin'
Mother Popcorn
Sex Machine
The Big Payback
Get Up Offa That Thang
Living in America

...and that's about it.

^^^ LOL 'Living in America' I remember that crap :lmao1:

But yeah...back on topic ;)

HIStory has HELLA filler...
I mean come on now... :dry:
DS = FILLER
Come Together = FILLER
(which should NEVER EVER be redone IMO...Yellow Submarine on the other hand :hmm:)
You Are Not Alone = FILLER
(I know this was probably 'the prom song of the year' but...)
Childhood = LAME FILLER
2Bad=FILLER
History = FILLER
Little Susie... (amazing instruments, lame content) = FILLER
Smile (gorgeously sung, beautiful instruments but...) = FILLER
Wow...did I just name most of disc 2!

And don't get me started on Dangerous. That album is the $hit! It almost, almost trumps OTW and Thriller, that's how good that ish was ;)

^ Come on!

2 Bad, Little Susie and Smile could never be called filler.

2 Bad is probably the most believable 'street' record MJ has ever done. Better than anything on Invincible.

LS & Smile are also perfect. Both probably in my Top 10 MJ. I never understand why many don't like Little Susie. To me it has everything (great arrangement, instrumentation, vocal, story ).

Smile is just beautiful. To hear him be so optimistic at the end of what is essentially a negative album is uplifting & life-affirming.

If there's a problem with the 2nd half of HIStory it's the fact that Mike stretched out the intros & outros to the songs to make them more standalone. So in songs like HIStory & L.S. you have long minute sections that are setting the scene of just sounds, samples, footsteps etc.

I understand they are playing a role in the story of the songs, but when you just want to chill or sing a long in the car, these really mess up your groove!

LS & Smile are also perfect.

Thankyou.

But who is Smile?

Does he post here?

I knew when I posted that it'd get that response.

The only reason why I edited the line "I never understand why many don't like L.S" is because I do.

^ Come on!

2 Bad, Little Susie and Smile could never be called filler.

2 Bad is probably the most believable 'street' record MJ has ever done. Better than anything on Invincible.

LS & Smile are also perfect. Both probably in my Top 10 MJ. I never understand why many don't like Little Susie. To me it has everything (great arrangement, instrumentation, vocal, story ).

Smile is just beautiful. To hear him be so optimistic at the end of what is essentially a negative album is uplifting & life-affirming.

If there's a problem with the 2nd half of HIStory it's the fact that Mike stretched out the intros & outros to the songs to make them more standalone. So in songs like HIStory & L.S. you have long minute sections that are setting the scene of just sounds, samples, footsteps etc.

I understand they are playing a role in the story of the songs, but when you just want to chill or sing a long in the car, these really mess up your groove!

Here's quite a bit I agree with. :)

If people come to HIStory expecting to be able to chill, they've got the wrong attitude. It looks to me like people here have based their impression of best album on the chill factor, therefore, ignoring musical composition and improved understanding as well as better lyrics.

Chill/enjoyment factor does not make it better than another piece. If it did, classical music wouldn't be so respected.

HIStory and Little Susie have perfect intros - genius! Only impatient people have no time for understanding those as they are revealing. On MJNO, a lot of fans thought Little Susie's intro was uneccesary until I explained to them what it flipping means. Then they appreciated the song more. ;)

Those songs aren't filler and Childhood is also musically sound - perfect as far as music theory goes.

In time, the songs that stand up centuries alter are serious pieces of art - not fun fluff like PY-bloody-T or what have you. HIStory will eventually be better appreciated than Thriller. Mark my words and remember this date in HIStory! ;) :lmao:

Couldn't resist. :mellow:

Oh Gary, Gary, Gary. I just started to agree with you and then you went and lost it again!

Only impatient people have no time for understanding those as they are revealing.

It's not a matter of impatience or my obvious stupidity. If I'm listening to music, I don't want to hear 2 minutes of quotes from Thomas Edison et al. I know exactly what they represent and why they're on the record. But it feels less like the HIStory album and more like the History channel.

Neither of us will be around long enough, but in 100 years I'm damn sure the music listening public would prefer P.Y.T. to HIStory.

It looks to me like people here have based their impression of best album on the chill factor, therefore, ignoring musical composition and improved understanding as well as better lyrics.

Or maybe they based it on what they enjoyed more?!? No formula behind it.

^^^The chill factor IS personal enjoyment, dude. ;)

The quotes and soundscapes do add to the HIStory album - it doesn't detract. But it is art and it does work, therefore, is infinitely more complex, crafted, etc, than anything on the fluff piece that is Thriller.

Incidentally, it was Dangerous that got me into unusual intros/outros with sound effects, classical, etc. Before that, I hated it cos of the fluff pieces on thriller and Bad to an extent.

Art lives and classical has survived - most of the fluff pieces of pop will die long before the art on HIStory. Like I said, enjoyment doesn't make one song better than another. :no2:

Tone, i will be around in 100 years. :mellow: I have power!

But on Dangerous he kept the intros / outros managable and in context. Who Is It and Will You Be There both have long intros but it works and doesn't become overbearing. Give In To Me's outro is massive and awesome, but again it doesn't detract - it adds.

If the WYBT intro would have been on 3 or 4 songs it would have slowed the whole album down and made it less enjoyable as a work.

^^^The chill factor IS personal enjoyment, dude. ;)

Surely it doesn't matter then? If someone prefers Thriller to HIStory, then it doesn't matter if they 'understand it less'. I hate that expression when it comes to music. Personally I can't comprehend why someone would enjoy Bad over Dangerous, but if they do - great. I wouldn't be so cocky as to explain why they are wrong and what elements of Jam or Who Is It they didn't understand.

Tone, i will be around in 100 years. :mellow: I have power!

My God, we thought the major problems faced by future generations was climate change, terrorism, knife crime or the crashing of global financial system, but this is it people!

ignoring musical composition and improved understanding as well as better lyrics.Who is to say that the Thriller album is better or worse composition and lyric wise? It's a matter of opinion :yes:

I feel that most of the Thriller album has better songs musically AND lyrically, with one exception, and that's SIM.

Music is meant to be entertainment. People can analyse it if they want, but they generally don't want to. Not saying we shouldn't, coz analysing is good, but mostly people want to be entertained.

I agree with Tony. I think people would enjoy PYT over HIStory in 100 years time. HIStory isn't a great song, (IMO), but PYT is a great song.

It's all about what you like, and what you personally think is better, to your ears :)

Surely it doesn't matter then? If someone prefers Thriller to HIStory, then it doesn't matter if they 'understand it less'. I hate that expression when it comes to music. Personally I can't comprehend why someone would enjoy Bad over Dangerous, but if they do - great. I wouldn't be so cocky as to explain why they are wrong and what elements of Jam or Who Is It they didn't understand.

Hit the nail on the head, Tone.

Anyone's musical preference ain't gotta be analyzed, Gary. ;)

If you're anything like me, anything can be analysed and can reveal things about people in general.

I can't help even if I wanted to...I couldn't help it even if I could - argghhhh! I'm SO not into that song - now, do ye early '80s lovers see what you're doing to meeeeeeeeeee?!?! :eek: :ohmy:

Slap some sense into me! :slap: Please! :slap:

If you're anything like me, anything can be analysed and can reveal things about people in general.

I can't help even if I wanted to...I couldn't help it even if I could - argghhhh! I'm SO not into that song - now, do ye early '80s lovers see what you're doing to meeeeeeeeeee?!?! :eek: :ohmy:

Slap some sense into me! :slap: Please! :slap:

I've been trying for months, but you keep ducking.

^^^ LOL 'Living in America' I remember that crap :lmao1:

:laughing: Love that song!
I blasted it on Nov. 4th :)


And don't get me started on Dangerous. That album is the $hit! It almost, almost trumps OTW and Thriller, that's how good that ish was ;)

Oh He// na! NOTHING trumps OTW :wink:

^ Come on!

LS & Smile are also perfect. Both probably in my Top 10 MJ. I never understand why many don't like Little Susie. To me it has everything (great arrangement, instrumentation, vocal, story ).

Smile is just beautiful. To hear him be so optimistic at the end of what is essentially a negative album is uplifting & life-affirming.

If there's a problem with the 2nd half of HIStory it's the fact that Mike stretched out the intros & outros to the songs to make them more standalone. So in songs like HIStory & L.S. you have long minute sections that are setting the scene of just sounds, samples, footsteps etc.

I understand they are playing a role in the story of the songs, but when you just want to chill or sing a long in the car, these really mess up your groove![

Tony, I know, I know :laughing:

I totally agree that these songs are absolutely lovely on all those levels you mentioned. But HIStory was not a fluid album for me. It was all over the place. I guess to me, these songs would've been better in another album, rather than this album. Maybe filler wasn't the best word used to describe those 2 songs... but because they seemed a bit random and out of place, I think I'll stand behind it LOL.

Agree, the 'chill' factor is off on this album :wink:


Oh He// na! NOTHING trumps OTW :wink:

:lmao1: I knew you were gonna say something about that.

I totally feel you on that, but from where I'm coming from... Dangerous was really, really a mature MJ album. OTW was a Quincy Jones sound, you know? Dangerous actually sounded like his sound. If I had to pick a 'sound' that I thought defined his music, it would definitely be the Dangerous sound. OTW is great for other reasons... ;)

^^^Little Susie and Smile aren't out of place on HIStory at all.

That album is as varied as a landscape and makes perfect sense.

I think I'll give up. :mellow:

I think I'll give up. :mellow:

Who are you and what have you done with Gary?!

I think I'll give up as well :doh:

It is a matter of personal taste, that's all.
We all feel strongly about a particular album for a number of reasons.

I think I'll give up. :mellow:

Somebody pinch me...

Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide
No escape from reality

"Thriller" overshadows everything Michael has done. I hear more songs on that album on the radio than any of the others.

Who are you and what have you done with Gary?!

I don't know. This guy is scary. :toofunny:

:lmao1: I knew you were gonna say something about that.

I totally feel you on that, but from where I'm coming from... Dangerous was really, really a mature MJ album. OTW was a Quincy Jones sound, you know? Dangerous actually sounded like his sound. If I had to pick a 'sound' that I thought defined his music, it would definitely be the Dangerous sound. OTW is great for other reasons... ;)

There's no such thing as a 'Quincy Jones sound'. Quincy has worked with various artists with different styles. You know MJ produced the album with Quincy, right?

I agree with this:

But HIStory was not a fluid album for me. It was all over the placeDon't get me wrong, HIStory is a great album. I also agree the chill factor is off on HIStory. It's my "angry" MJ album- the one I listen to when I am in a bad mood, or feel hard done by etc. For me, Thriller is an album for all occasions... can be listened to whenever - but that's just me :)

For me, HIStory is much more an album chock full of REFLECTION. :yes:

The album isn't and shouldn't be categorised simply as angry since it isn't strictly correct that it's anger in every or most songs. What some mistake for anger is defiance in some, etc. TDCAU is righteous anger while Scream is more on the lines of a kind of victimised anger. This Time Around is not anger and doesn't sound like it - all the clenched vocals, exaggerated gasps all convey paranoia and fear.

And so on for infinity - Buzz again! ;)

I don't think the whole album is angry, or every song in it- don't get me wrong, but when I say it's my "angry" Mj album- I mean just that it's not one I can listen to when I am just in any type of mood.

I hate to disagree, but with This Time Around, it sounds very angry. Especially with lyrics like "This time around, I'm taking no ****". He spits the lyrics out like he's angry. I know there's much more to it, but on the surface, it sounds like an angry song.

I have to admit, that if Hot Street and For All Time had replaced Baby Be Mine and Lady In My Life on Thriller, I would probably rate it above Bad and HIStory, and though HIStory has some filler too, Gary put it very well, it :rock:s

^ I guarantee you if that had happened, we wouldn't be looking at the best selling album of all time!

For All Time is so poor! Especially when compared to Lady In My Life which is just sublime. I'm not sure I appreciated it when Thriller first came out, I used to fast forward (we didn't have skip back then!) Baby Be Mine and LIML to get to the funky tracks. But LIML is just beautiful, I have new love for it after getting the full version recently (thanks Marni!).

Yeah they made the right choices for "Thriller" obviously.

I think Got The Hots would have been a terrible choice for Thriller, but For All Time is a brilliant song- but may have been better suited to an album like Dangerous. :unsure: It's too similar to Human Nature to have been on the Thriller album, imo.

^ I guarantee you if that had happened, we wouldn't be looking at the best selling album of all time!

For All Time is so poor! Especially when compared to Lady In My Life which is just sublime. I'm not sure I appreciated it when Thriller first came out, I used to fast forward (we didn't have skip back then!) Baby Be Mine and LIML to get to the funky tracks. But LIML is just beautiful, I have new love for it after getting the full version recently (thanks Marni!).

For All Time has become one of my fav MJ tunes- I can't compare it to anything, but I am glad we got it later. LIML has always been one of my fav MJ songs- aside from Billie Jean, it's my fav track from Thriller. I don't generally like a lot of MJ ballads (I prefer his up-tempo stuff) but LIML is amazing.

^ I guarantee you if that had happened, we wouldn't be looking at the best selling album of all time!

For All Time is so poor! Especially when compared to Lady In My Life which is just sublime. I'm not sure I appreciated it when Thriller first came out, I used to fast forward (we didn't have skip back then!) Baby Be Mine and LIML to get to the funky tracks. But LIML is just beautiful, I have new love for it after getting the full version recently (thanks Marni!).

No, you can't. :no2:

Much of thriller's success was down to everything besides the music. When you have an additional 7million record sales after your burns accident whih is what FINALLY pushed Thriller into the record books...you know it's not all about the music.

A massive slice of it was down to how Michael was being perceived by people - non-threatening, non-sexual demeanour, innocent, Bambi with teh big doe eyes, Peter Pan's features first noticed in 1983, etc. We had Jackson breaking the idea of himself as a cute, young boy and smashing it blurring every single thing there is.

Then we have some excellent performances and a revolution in music videos which continued long after the first wave with Beat It.

And so much more that contributed to it's success. Even his friends noticed it was much more about how people were responding to MJ as a person rather than that music on that massive scale. He became mythical for the first time in a real way.

His fashion helped create the myth.

The music helped, but wasn't the major feature of the achievement.
The PR was unique and Jackson was the exact opposite of most major, highly sexualised male performers of the time. Others tried a similar thing - Adam Ant - but didn't have Jackson's canny sense of what was popular.

What was popular?

In a word, fantasy. Magic. Myths. Legends. Dream worlds. Massively driven and influenced by the popular films of the era from 1977 to 1985 especially.

The PR and timing was unique.

Tony, although Thriller may not have sold as well without LIML and BBM, I never touched that point, I only said it would've made me prefer it over Bad and HIStory (which I currently don't).

If we're gonna ponder in sales, I think, if the following were true:
Michael didn't have Vitiligo
Michael wasn't accused of child molestation
Michael had been less "mysterious and eccentric" (you know what I mean, masks, no interviews, an amusement park in his garden)
Nirvana and Queens albums didn't coincide with Dangerous

Dangerous would've sold more than Thriller, but then again, that's just personal speculation. :wink:

Tony, although Thriller may not have sold as well without LIML and BBM, I never touched that point, I only said it would've made me prefer it over Bad and HIStory (which I currently don't).

If we're gonna ponder in sales, I think, if the following were true:
Michael didn't have Vitiligo
Michael wasn't accused of child molestation
Michael had been less "mysterious and eccentric" (you know what I mean, masks, no interviews, an amusement park in his garden)
Nirvana and Queens albums didn't coincide with Dangerous

Dangerous would've sold more than Thriller, but then again, that's just personal speculation. :wink:

I think you're spot on (except for the Queen album), I think I'm right in saying that Dangerous beat Thriller in the rest of the world and America was just catching up after the great PR of the Oprah interview & the Grammy's award & speech.

I'm not sure if it would have beaten Thriller but would have been close.

I think you're spot on (except for the Queen album), I think I'm right in saying that Dangerous beat Thriller in the rest of the world and America was just catching up after the great PR of the Oprah interview & the Grammy's award & speech.

I'm not sure if it would have beaten Thriller but would have been close.

When considering HIStory cost twice as much as any albums he previously released, factoring in his wrecked public image, HIStory did very will selling 20 million, best selling double album of all time.

When looking a bit further, Blood on the Dance Floor in 1997 remains the best selling remix album, so while his image had a negative impact on his record sales, they remained in the top (YANA was first single to debut at #1).

Indeed, if his American audience hadn't all but deserted him, Jackson's sales would have been a lot higher.

Once an album sells massively in the States it sells! That's why artists always want to break there. That's also why we have artists like Garth Brooks who have sold tens of millions but no-one else has heard of them!

In relation to Thriller, Jackson's sales have been low, but in comparison to other artists they've all been massive. Even Invincible which has sold as much as Timberlake's last album which was considered a huge success.

Dangerous actually outsold every single grunge record on the market - it beat Nirvana to be the top selling album over the Christmas 1992 period in the USA, for example. Don't believe the distortion that grunge hit Dangerous too hard cos it didn't - the chart history shows that. Dangerous didn't outsell Thriller in every market - in fact, it sold the same as Thriller in the same periods after original release. So did HIStory - only the USA market was hit for this one. It is conceivable that both 1990s albums would've sold VERY close to Thriller. HIStory is the more impressive seller of the 3 from every single sales figure I've got, some week by week. :yes: With HIStory, Michael deserted America and proved the US wasn't needed to have a massive international hit. that album outsold every album in the world throughout it's first year including those that sold more in the USA only.

One more vital part of Thriller's success I forgot to mention were actually two more things:

1 - The race issue (Barack Obama was helped by this too but not 100% - same with MJ...it helped.)

2 - American politics given the weak economy and low morale at the time. Reagan used Thriller throughout 1984 and it actually dragged MJ into the Cold War row. :yes:

To conclude our pointless ramblings:
HIStory > Thriller :wild:

Reagan wins! I didn't know he used Thriller in politics though, it's not a very political album, although I guess it didn't matter a lot, it's good music anyway ;)

Dangerous actually outsold every single grunge record on the market - it beat Nirvana to be the top selling album over the Christmas 1992 period in the USA, for example. Don't believe the distortion that grunge hit Dangerous too hard cos it didn't - the chart history shows that.

Except it did. As much as you may not want to believe it, Nirvana's Nevermind changed the face of popular music as much as Thriller did.

Dangerous had been out for one week in the US when Nevermind hit and it blew people out of the water. It kick-started a whole new genre and once again a bunch of scuzzy boys in a garage had the self belief that they too could be rock stars.

Loud, guitar based rock took over the airwaves in America and pop was put on the back burner for a while.

Of course, it still sold and Dangerous, janet & Music Box were all huge in 92/93, but American charts were primarily full of Grunge, Country & R&B.

Except it did. As much as you may not want to believe it, Nirvana's Nevermind changed the face of popular music as much as Thriller did.

Dangerous had been out for one week in the US when Nevermind hit and it blew people out of the water. It kick-started a whole new genre and once again a bunch of scuzzy boys in a garage had the self belief that they too could be rock stars.

Loud, guitar based rock took over the airwaves in America and pop was put on the back burner for a while.

Of course, it still sold and Dangerous, janet & Music Box were all huge in 92/93, but American charts were primarily full of Grunge, Country & R&B.

Fact is Dangerous outsold Grunge throughout 1992 in the United States. It wasn't Nirvana who outsold Michael Jackson over the most important period of the market year at all. :no2:

Grunge did outsell pop in general, but Michael Jackson was the real lone pop act who was outselling grunge. :yes: Even after the Super Bowl and Oprah, Dangerous passed over most of grunge that was in the charts and made it's way back to No.1 after being knocked out of the top 130. Dangerous had been written off, but its resurgence shocked people. Grunge didn't have its impact by late 1993 although Dangerous was still very high up the American charts. Grunge did change the face of popular music, but it didn't largely outperform the single pop album that was able to hold its own. :no2:

Nevermind and Dangerous' sales are not as far apart in the USA as some have been led to believe. Nirvana sold 10million with theirs at some point, but not all during the course of it's original campaign. Dangerous sold 4 million in the USA by sometime in 1992 and a certified total of 7million later although this should be closer to 8million by now.

Dangerous held its own against grunge.

The distortions are distortions. Check our vaults - you should find a couple of articles demonstrating it was Dangerous that outsold grunge.

I'm pretty sure Dangerous sold around 7m in the US comapred to 10m for Nevermind.

^^^I didn't say Dangerous outsold Nevermind overall. ;)

I did say it held it's own and for most of the original campaign Dangerous was leading Nevermind. No other grunge album outsold Dangerous at all.

Grunge and Nirvana's success has been overstated. They didn't massively outsell MJ in the USA, ESPECIALLY considering Michael had way more negativity than Nirvana did and Michael didn't even tour the USA back then either. Nirvana toured the US unless I'm mistaken.

Worldwide, Nevermind is estimated at 27million compared to Dangerous' 30 to 33million depending on where you read it.

Like I said, more than held its own. :yes:

To conclude our pointless ramblings:
HIStory > Thriller :wild:

Reagan wins! I didn't know he used Thriller in politics though, it's not a very political album, although I guess it didn't matter a lot, it's good music anyway ;)

:toofunny:

To conclude our pointless ramblings:
HIStory > Thriller :wild:

Reagan wins! I didn't know he used Thriller in politics though, it's not a very political album, although I guess it didn't matter a lot, it's good music anyway ;)

The endorsement of Jackson adn his success with Thriller was deliberately used by Reagan's administration to demonstrate to Americans that the US economy was fine. It was also used to say Black Americans could be as successful as whites there too and that Americans don't need to despair about the state of the country cos MJ represented traditional values. :yes:

None of that bore any kind of reality to the state of America and the economy at the time. If the economy was stronger, Thriller may not have broken past 33million which it did after Reagan used MJ. MJ also used Reagan too. The Republican party wanted to invite MJ to their convention in 1984 too.

The album was seen as happy, carefree music even though it's dark side was ignored by Reagan. The Soviet Union attacked America and MJ over Thriller's success and the video. :yes: That role would be reversed come 1993, ironically.

Dangerous actually outsold every single grunge record on the market - it beat Nirvana to be the top selling album over the Christmas 1992 period in the USA, for example. Don't believe the distortion that grunge hit Dangerous too hard cos it didn't - the chart history shows that. Dangerous didn't outsell Thriller in every market - in fact, it sold the same as Thriller in the same periods after original release. So did HIStory - only the USA market was hit for this one.:toofunny: It is conceivable that both 1990s albums would've sold VERY close to Thriller. HIStory is the more impressive seller of the 3 from every single sales figure I've got, some week by week. :yes: With HIStory, Michael deserted America and proved the US wasn't needed to have a massive international hit. that album outsold every album in the world throughout it's first year including those that sold more in the USA only.

Are you talking worldwide or only in the States?
Thriller sold 100 million and Dangerous 30 million....How is that close?

One more vital part of Thriller's success I forgot to mention were actually two more things:

1 - The race issue (Barack Obama was helped by this too but not 100% - same with MJ...it helped.)

2 - American politics given the weak economy and low morale at the time. Reagan used Thriller throughout 1984 and it actually dragged MJ into the Cold War row. :yes:

Race had little to do with Thrillers success. Barack Obama?!? :huh:

2- :unsure::unsure: WTH!

Are you talking worldwide or only in the States?
Thriller sold 100 million and Dangerous 30 million....How is that close?



Race had little to do with Thrillers success. Barack Obama?!? :huh:

2- :unsure::unsure: WTH!

I think you misinterpreted my post. :twitch:

Fact is, race did have a lot to do with Thriller's success - see Billie Jean or Q, Rod and Bruce telling Michael he would never sell that much cos he's a black artist. Part of Obama's success was down to race too, but not completely. Enough people were on TV saying they voted for him based on the colour of his skin. Point is, there is never ONE single reason why a person is massively successful at any time, especially when it comes to unique achievements.

No, I'm not talking about Thriller's accumulation towards 100mill over 25 years. It was in reference to the original campaigns of each album - fact is Dangerous and HIStory sold the same amounts as Thriller overseas during each campaign. The only difference is that Thriller had the American market cornered and no other album did since for MJ. This helped Thriller over 33million back in 1984.

I never said Dangerous or HIStory outsold Thriller overall. ;) I did say that Dangerous and HIStory would've sold close to Thriller given the original eras they were released when thriller was at 47million and 50million. I clearly stated original release. :yes:

Fact is, race did have a lot to do with Thriller's success. Part of Obama's success was down to race too, but not completely. Enough people were on TV saying they voted for him based on the colour of his skin. Point is, there is never ONE single reason why a person is massively successful at any time, especially when it comes to unique achievements.

No, I'm not talking about Thriller's accumulation towards 100mill over 25 years. It was in reference to the original campaigns of each album - fact is Dangerous and HIStory sold the same amounts as Thriller overseas during each campaign. The only difference is that Thriller had the American market cornered and no other album did since for MJ. This helped Thriller over 33million back in 1984.

Oh my! HAHAHA! O.K. Let me get this straight...So your saying its a good thing to be black according to society? :laughing: and weren't you the one that mentioned that "African American Stereotype" that black men were seen as "threatening"? Your not making any sense...The people that mentioned that they were voting for Obama because he is black are BLACK there self....The reason why Obama won has little to do with race. I mean if he were to lose I think people would bring up the race card but thats not the matter. He won because he was the best candidate. He won the electoral vote by a landslide.

But back on topic, MJ's Thriller success had little to do with the color of his skin. Thriller was a commercial success especially with the music video coming out....nothing to do race.

Oh my! HAHAHA! O.K. Let me get this straight...So your saying its a good thing to be black according to society? :laughing: and weren't you the one that mentioned that "African American Stereotype" that black men were seen as "threatening"? Your not making any sense...The people that mentioned that they were voting for Obama because he is black are BLACK there self....The reason why Obama won has little to do with race. I mean if he were to lose I think people would bring up the race card but thats not the matter. He won because he was the best candidate. He won the electoral vote by a landslide.

But back on topic, MJ's Thriller success had little to do with the color of his skin. Thriller was a commercial success especially with the music video coming out....nothing to do race.

Clearly, you've misinterpreted what I'm saying.
:yes:

Barack Obama's success did have race playing into it and that is undeniable. Same with Michael. I did mention the African American stereotype somewhere else, but you clearly never got the stress that Jackson and others challenged the stereotype completely which opened up doors for African Americans and continue to do so. I know when I talk about something I have 6 main lines of argument which all interlink running right through and some people get lost in it. Everything is interdependent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying race was the MAJOR reaon why Obama won. :no2: Part of me and other people wanted him to win partly because he's black - I wanted America's institutionalised racism to be smashed in teh White House as that sends a powerful message. The main reason I wanted him to win is because I believed in Obama and his traditional values. Those two examples are/were similar to MJ in 1984.

Elsewhere I've stated Thriller's video massively helped the success, but don't forget the album was ALREADY the best selling album ever BEFORE Thriller was premiered on 2nd December 1984. It had sold 35million to 38million approximately by that point - the video gave it another roughly 10-14million extra sales depending on where you read. :yes:

Success is never one dimensional because the world we live in is not one dimensional. Race, money, sexuality and so many things are variables in how successful a person is/can be. that hasn't changed in thousands of years. :no2:

Clearly, you've misinterpreted what I'm saying.
:yes:

Barack Obama's success did have race playing into it and that is undeniable. Same with Michael. I did mention the African American stereotype somewhere else, but you clearly never got the stress that Jackson and others challenged the stereotype completely which opened up doors for African Americans and continue to do so. I know when I talk about something I have 6 main lines of argument which all interlink running right through and some people get lost in it. Everything is interdependent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying race was the MAJOR reaon why Obama won. :no2: Part of me and other people wanted him to win partly because he's black - I wanted America's institutionalised racism to be smashed in teh White House as that sends a powerful message. The main reason I wanted him to win is because I believed in Obama and his traditional values. Those two examples are/were similar to MJ in 1984.

Elsewhere I've stated Thriller's video massively helped the success, but don't forget the album was ALREADY the best selling album ever BEFORE Thriller was premiered on 2nd December 1984. It had sold 35million to 38million approximately by that point - the video gave it another roughly 10-14million extra sales depending on where you read. :yes:

Success is never one dimensional because the world we live in is not one dimensional. Race, money, sexuality and so many things are variables in how successful a person is/can be. that hasn't changed in thousands of years. :no2:

No, I understand you clearly. I just don't agree with you.:wink:

Obama didn't win because his black! Racism is still alive in America PERIOD
I'm sure many people wanted him to win because his black (Mainly, The Black community did) but that really has nothing to do with it when it comes down to the electoral votes. The popular vote really didn't mean anything because he won the electoral vote by a landslide. Especially the black vote didn't mean sh!t. Last time I checked many people didn't want him to win because his black....

So when you relate this to Michael's Thriller success your saying that people bought his album because he was black?!?! Even if he was purple that album would be a great success like it was. Race really has nothing to do with it.

^^^I'm not saying Thriller wouldn't have been a success without his race. But race plays a role in every domain of human life, for good or bad.

Another dimension that ia a variable on success is disability. FDR hid his disability in order to be elected. If it was widely known, he wouldn't have been elected. I know about disability since my own has hindered my success in some things, but I've also been more successful cos I worked harder at it.

Same with Mj and Obama - when you know the obarriers you work 3 times as hard.

Racism is alive but is dying slowly.

^^^ Of course, race plays a role in everything but to say that Thriller was a success for that reason is an oxymoron. Plus FDR won because he made a promise to get America out of the Depression kind of how Obama did. African Americans are the only Americans who, as an individual, must reach beyond their own group for absolute identification. That's what Obama and MJ did and thats why they're successful.

^^^ Of course, race plays a role in everything but to say that Thriller was a success for that reason is an oxymoron. Plus FDR won because he made a promise to get America out of the Depression kind of how Obama did. African Americans are the only Americans who, as an individual, must reach beyond their own group for absolute identification. That's what Obama and MJ did and thats why they're successful.

I love that.

I think the issue of race gets over examined in many cases. Sometimes people succeed because they are great in what they do. Yes, they may have had more barriers to overcome, but most of us are a minority in one way, shape or form.

The same for gender, sexuality, disability etc.

Obama, Jackson, Madonna, Stephen Hawking, George Michael all massively succeeded in their field because they were great at what they did. Not because they were black, gay, disabled, female.

Of course their respective issue may have helped or hindered, but only the same way it would a straight, white, male. E.g. Elvis's success was partly because he was a great looking white man.

I'm also not saying that Thriller & Jackson didn't help to break down barriers, because it did, the same way Obama has but that's just a by product. It mainly sold because it's a brilliant piece of work, fantastically promoted by new concepts on music video & performance.

I'm reminded of a fantastic Sammy Davis Jr quote. When he was playing golf, someone asked him what his handicap was, he said "I'm a one-eyed, black Jew - what more do you want?"

I think the giant statue of himself is very egotistical, and may have had a negative impact on HIStory sales as well. Yes, Michael may have been the biggest star on the planet at the time, but no need to paint it like that.

No, I understand you clearly. I just don't agree with you.:wink:

Obama didn't win because his black! Racism is still alive in America PERIOD
I'm sure many people wanted him to win because his black (Mainly, The Black community did) but that really has nothing to do with it when it comes down to the electoral votes. The popular vote really didn't mean anything because he won the electoral vote by a landslide. Especially the black vote didn't mean sh!t. Last time I checked many people didn't want him to win because his black....

So when you relate this to Michael's Thriller success your saying that people bought his album because he was black?!?! Even if he was purple that album would be a great success like it was. Race really has nothing to do with it.

Michael had to FIGHT to break down barriers, including getting on MTV. So I agree completely with what you're saying. Race had nothing to do with that album being as successful as it was. It was great music, great business, great promotion etc that made that album as successful as it was.

I think the giant statue of himself is very egotistical, and may have had a negative impact on HIStory sales as well. Yes, Michael may have been the biggest star on the planet at the time, but no need to paint it like that.

Although you're likely to bring on a Gary rant with that comment, no doubt including facts & figures that show HIStory sales increasing whenever the statue was shown, I fully agree with you.

The statue was an affront to human decency. 'Look at me, aren't I great', then the booklet with quotes & pictures saying how great he is. Then the teaser making him out to be some sort of world peacemaker. And the first thing that fell out of the CD case when you open it was a merchandise booklet with items saying how great he was.

Let the music speak for itself!!

I know it turned a lot of people off buying it.

You can't dispute those things helped. As megalomaniac as all that was or seemed, it definitely helped sales. :yes: It was HIStory fever here!

But yeah, the promotion of Thriller was much more subtle. :yes:

You can't dispute those things helped. As megalomaniac as all that was or seemed, it definitely helped sales. :yes: It was HIStory fever here!

But yeah, the promotion of Thriller was much more subtle. :yes:

I imagine it only helped with existing fans. I can't imagine non fans looked at that and thought they must buy the album.

Although it obviously got publicity and put him back in the public eye.

Michael had to FIGHT to break down barriers, including getting on MTV. So I agree completely with what you're saying. Race had nothing to do with that album being as successful as it was. It was great music, great business, great promotion etc that made that album as successful as it was.

Yes and thats why I mentioned this
African Americans are the only Americans who, as an individual, must reach beyond their own group for absolute identification.

It's off topic, but why is that peculiar to AA's why not American Muslims or Hispanics?

It's off topic, but why is that peculiar to AA's why not American Muslims or Hispanics?

I mentioned that because it was stated by the founding fathers. American Muslims or Hispanics weren't in question at the time.

Does that make sense? :unsure:

I mentioned that because it was stated by the founding fathers. American Muslims or Hispanics weren't in question at the time.

Does that make sense? :unsure:

I think so, thanks. Would you agree that it's relevant to more than just AA's though?

^^^ I think, as a whole, American history has been relatively black and white... Hispanics 'back in the day' were considered 'White' and I don't know if Muslim's were in large numbers ??? I could be wrong.

There's no such thing as a 'Quincy Jones sound'. Quincy has worked with various artists with different styles. You know MJ produced the album with Quincy, right?

You have to agree that you associate certain sounds with certain producers. NO matter who MJ is working with, he is going to in some way, shape, or form adopt pieces of the other producers' sound. If this wasn't the case, why wouldn't he, or any other artist for that matter, just produce all the albums themselves with no collabos?

Teddy Riley, Rodney Jerkins, Babyface, Jimmy Jam + Terry Lewis, R. Kelly, Ne-Yo, Kanye West, etc. all have a 'sound'... you can almost always pinpoint. How many times have you turned on the radio and been like 'hey is that so and so...?' It's because they have a particular sound that we all associate with them! :twitch:



Fact is, race did have a lot to do with Thriller's success - see Billie Jean or Q, Rod and Bruce telling Michael he would never sell that much cos he's a black artist. Part of Obama's success was down to race too, but not completely. Enough people were on TV saying they voted for him based on the colour of his skin. Point is, there is never ONE single reason why a person is massively successful at any time, especially when it comes to unique achievements.



^^^ Of course, race plays a role in everything but to say that Thriller was a success for that reason is an oxymoron. Plus FDR won because he made a promise to get America out of the Depression kind of how Obama did. African Americans are the only Americans who, as an individual, must reach beyond their own group for absolute identification. That's what Obama and MJ did and thats why they're successful.

I think too, race can't be completely ignored, but the even bigger issue IMO (which allowed Thriller to be that successful) was the fact that MJ was up against a wall, really :head_bang:. People telling him his album wasn't gonna be a hit, the race issue, etc. I think all of this pressure (that he probably put on himself to succeed) allowed his creativity to really be at it's highest level. I think many creative people function best under pressure and when they are at odds with the world, so to speak.

In regards to the race thing, I think that might've been part of the driving force behind making Thriller such a 'crossover' type album - trying to appeal to the masses. I'm sure all the folks involved knew, and especially MJ, that in order for an album to be truly successful, it had to appeal to the largest audience (men, women, young, old, black, white, etc.).

I think so, thanks. Would you agree that it's relevant to more than just AA's though?

Absolutely! Any one that ISN'T a straight rich white man.

Absolutely! Any one that ISN'T a straight rich white man.

Also, can be used as an excuse by anyone who isn't a straight, rich, white man.

Also, can be used as an excuse by anyone who isn't a straight, rich, white man.

....Huh :huh:

....Huh :huh:

Uh-oh, I'm on dodgy ground here so I'll try & word it carefully. What I mean is, although there's some truth in what you say. Many use being in a minority as an excuse.

"I failed because I'm black/gay/female" etc.

Even Mike used it for the relative failure of Invincible.

He was black when Thriller, Bad & Dangerous sold 30m plus but as soon as Vince failed it was 'cos of 'racist Sony'.

Spot the irony there by the way!

Michael had to FIGHT to break down barriers, including getting on MTV. So I agree completely with what you're saying. Race had nothing to do with that album being as successful as it was. It was great music, great business, great promotion etc that made that album as successful as it was.

I don't know why people like to focus their attention on MTV. I mean I'd like it better if you say he broke down barriers for black artists for music videos in general though MTV and BET were practically the only music video channels. After the breakthroughs of MJ and Prince, who needs to take partial credit for "Little Red Corvette", every other station started to produce music video shows that gave MTV a run for its money, lol. But MTV nowadays is a reality-based channel. :laughing:

The reason why "Thriller" work so well was because there was a great team in CBS Records to help promote it, Walter Yetnikoff was the person who told MTV to play "Billie Jean" otherwise he'd take every video by CBS Records acts if they didn't comply. But this is where the story gets complicated, according to EBONY magazine, MTV executives said Yetnikoff's story was a "myth" and that they bragged about MJ's video as "the greatest thing I ever saw" and "played it immediately". I believe Walter's story though but that's just me. :laughing:

Plus I just believed when Michael began to become a solo artist, he did it at the right time and came at the right time. I'm sure if it hadn't been Michael, Prince would've likely broken through too, then we'll be talking about how he broke barriers, which in ESSENCE, he did, no one mixed pop, rock, funk and R&B better than Prince did. MJ being the only other guy to come close.

The reason why "Invincible" didn't work? Because Michael Jackson and Sony Records/Tommy Motolla didn't see eye-to-eye on the project plus Michael refused to put out any more albums for Sony. The rant was kinda stupid too, I thought. I mean if you're not satisfied with a record that sold two million, you can just move on and either set a new deal with Sony or just work it out. He didn't have to do all of that.

We all got caught up in that mess too. No need b*tching about it now. It's been six years.

Uh-oh, I'm on dodgy ground here so I'll try & word it carefully. What I mean is, although there's some truth in what you say. Many use being in a minority as an excuse.

"I failed because I'm black/gay/female" etc.

Even Mike used it for the relative failure of Invincible.

He was black when Thriller, Bad & Dangerous sold 30m plus but as soon as Vince failed it was 'cos of 'racist Sony'.

Spot the irony there by the way!

Very true :yes:
Its really not wise to do so.

I like HIStory more. I think there is so much more experience and Michael has something real to say with it.

Thriller is just nice music that's easy to listen, but when I'm listen to HIStory, I need to think. Songs in HIStory made me want to know Michael better, because those lyrics have so much to tell, between the lines and written also.

You can't dispute those things helped. As megalomaniac as all that was or seemed, it definitely helped sales. :yes: It was HIStory fever here!

But yeah, the promotion of Thriller was much more subtle. :yes:

I imagine it was that way for fans.

Outside of fans it only raised the "laughing stock" way of thinking about Michael Jackson that has been around for a while.

I think Michael needs to find a way of promotion that is subtle but effective again. Stop trying to top what you did last time.

Edit:

I originally wrote "top yourself", but I'm not sure using slang for suicide is appropriate. :doh:

No way! HIStory is not a good album. I prefer Off the Wall from Thriller.

I like those fine, but the HIStory album has a "bite " to it (for lack of a better expression. It just appeals to the generation X'ers like me:cool:

It has a certain appeal I agree. But you know comparing any album to "Thriller" doesn't actually make sense. A better comparison may b/w "Dangerous" and "HIStory". Dangerous also appealed to Generation-Xers, as well as my group (Generation Y). :happy:

I don't get the generations thing... :unsure: I could be an X or Y- I was born in 1980... but yes, I prefer Dangerous over HIStory even. But I am a weird one- I even prefer Invincible over HIStory... so yeah :unsure:

LOL, yeah it don't matter, but I just wanted to respond back, lol. :lol:

I don't get the generations thing... :unsure: I could be an X or Y- I was born in 1980... but yes, I prefer Dangerous over HIStory even. But I am a weird one- I even prefer Invincible over HIStory... so yeah :unsure:

Indeed I prefer Invincible over HIStory too. :D So then there is two of weird ones..

I can't determine whether being black as affected his sales negatively or positively, but I know for a fact that becoming white has had a negative impact, especially since a lot of people think he bleached his skin purposely.

I can't determine whether being black as affected his sales negatively or positively, but I know for a fact that becoming white has had a negative impact, especially since a lot of people think he bleached his skin purposely.

I agree it did. Gary will find lots of stats to prove otherwise, but he lost a good percentage of his black fanbase when his skin turned white, especially in America.

I don't get the generations thing... :unsure: I could be an X or Y- I was born in 1980... but yes, I prefer Dangerous over HIStory even. But I am a weird one- I even prefer Invincible over HIStory... so yeah :unsure:

That's how I feel when people say "Oh, that's a bit before your time, isn't it?"

No it's not. How can it be before my time if it's there for me to listen to?

I agree it did. Gary will find lots of stats to prove otherwise, but he lost a good percentage of his black fanbase when his skin turned white, especially in America.

Plastic surgery (although he had the majority of it between 1984 and 1987), began creating a lot of negative rumors in the 90ies, and evolved into a frequent topic of discussion in the media. This has without a doubt ragged on HIStory's commercial success.

^^^HIStory outsold Bad, Thriller and Dagerous in many markets around the world. Bad was MJ's best seller in Germany until HIStory outsold it at TWICE the price.

The issues over his appearance is one factor to consider clearly, but care must be taken to consider all facts before citing this as one major factor in a decline of sales which is relative anyway.

Only Thriller has outsold every single MJ album where Michael's skin was 'white'. Off The Wall has outsold BOTDF and Invincible only, but Bad, Dangerous and HIStory have outsold OTW. HIStory's being the most impressive given it's unusually high price even for double albums.

What, then, is the standard for Michael's sales? Thriller? Surely not! Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' was the best selling album by an act until Thriller surpassed it, but this is not the standard basis for judging their sales by...is it? We can do a similar thing for Shania Twain as well with Come On Over. Clearly, there is already a precedent for LOWER sales for anyone after a massive selling album.

If Thriller is the standard, then that's technically the size of MJ's market and this is clearly not the case. If all other MJ solo albums fared less well, this cannot be simplified as 'sales went down cos he turned white' for the simple reason most of his albums were sold to the public when his skin was still black.

Sure, media gossip and MJ refusing to speak out in good time plus all his oddities have all contributed to how the public regard him, i.e. from boy with the golden touch to Peter Panified 'pervert'. In market place terms, the MJ brand was positive and appealing at its best in 1984, but negative and repelling at its worst in 1994. Brand associations do play a role in persuading the consumer to buy something, but doesn't cause the conclusive overall sales dip many assume - various companies demonstrate this.

But does public perception clearly demonstrate a decline in sales?

Not conclusively, if it did Dangerous and HIStory especially would've sold less than OTW - an album that most non-fans clearly view as made by a clear African American person. HIStory especially would've posted sales figures that couldn't rival those of Dangerous or Bad anywhere on Earth and that wasn't the case.

Having considered all the available facts including public perception of the man as well as the fact that most sections of the public can, and do, separate the person from the music whoever they are...I'd say market forces had a BIGGER impact on album sales for ANYONE...including Michael. Market forces also comes into the success story of thriller big time, especially in the United States and demonstrated by the fact the White House/Reagan Administration was essentially aligning itself with a person packaged as a commercial product. Thriller gave Reagan an excellent opportunity to declare the US economy was doing just fine since Thriller was generating millions of dolalrs and also demonstrated to Americans that anyone can succeed even when things are against you, i.e. racism and a weak economy.

Market forces gets my overall vote and this would account for the up-down sales of every record ever made by any recording artist over the last few decades. Market forces has the biggest impact on ANY commercial product - record sales don't escape that.

You must accept Gareth, for it is fact, that Jackson lost many fans due to his altered appearance and this led to lower sales.

Of course, albums were selling less by the 1990s and no-one's saying HIStory should have matched Thriller's sales, and I accept there were other causes (high price of double album etc), but if MJ would have had the same public persona he had in 1982 or 1988 HIStory would have sold much better.

No-one will think less of you if you admit I'm right (!).

On a side salad, Gary...why not just go the whole hog and put all this information in your sig instead of posting it everytime anyone says anything that doesn't equal "HIStory is MJs Greatest album and doesn't have any fillers"?

It'll save you a lot of time :wink:

You must accept Gareth, for it is fact, that Jackson lost many fans due to his altered appearance and this led to lower sales.

Of course, albums were selling less by the 1990s and no-one's saying HIStory should have matched Thriller's sales, and I accept there were other causes (high price of double album etc), but if MJ would have had the same public persona he had in 1982 or 1988 HIStory would have sold much better.

No-one will think less of you if you admit I'm right (!).

Nope, even if he had the same public persona in 1995 as in 1984 HIStory wouldn't have had a chance of selling like Thriller. Clearly demonstrated by the clear sales gulf between Off The Wall and Thriller - market forces is the major explanation for that alongside the variability of the perception of the quality of the product(s).

Market forces is the clear factor on album sales over public personal opinions towards an act. Only Michael's Thriller had that kind of reception by the public and it perfectly fit in with an economical recession in the United States which had morale plummeting faster than the Titanic. So, Reagan's Administration used Thriller and Michael for political gain which made headline news worldwide.

One thing about Thriller's sales that comes to mind is that when his hair caught fire in end of Jan 1984, Thriller sold 7million EXTRA copies in the 1st week of February 1984 alone in America. This had nothing to do with the product itself, but public reaction to the star. Public reactions to a star cannot merely be put down to 'i like him...he's wholesome...gorgeous...' as that was thought of him too with Off The Wall.

But the market force was perfect for thriller - if the economy had been buoyant then, I seriously doubt if Thriller's sales would've taken off as it did. Even with the videos. The videos would've helped, but the reaction and impulse to buy would've been less. The weak economy dampened American morale, but when Thriller's videos and the M25 performance were out...morale shot through the roof, people's minds were taken off the nation's problems and millions bought the flipping thing!

This is also the difference between thriller and Bad. The American economy was much stronger by 1988 and although Michael pulled out all the stops for bad with THAT tour which generated hysteria in America and around the world...the impulse to buy the album was less than Thriller's. American morale was much better in 1988 than 4 years earlier - we now know there is a link between impulse to buy and a downturn in moods.

In short, people spend more money on something that they feel will help lift their mood up. People spend less money when they are happy.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2008/04/11/sad-people-spend-more-money-nsf-finds.htm

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23057223/

www.dbtechno.com/curiosity/2008/02/08/sad-depressed-people-likely-to-spend-more-money/

For a more indepth look at how ways of marketing and psychology work together to make commercial sales of every product go up and down:

http://www.consumerpsychologist.com/

Also, it is impossible to even try to verify that Michael lost X amount of fans and this led to a decline in album sales. Thee are no stats on this and it shouldn't be paraded around ressed up a fact when it's not. I'm aware Michael lost X amount of fans, BUT he also gained X amount of fans. :yes:

Market forces still is the biggest factor in commercial product sales of any kind.

^^^

Are you really encouraging us to look at psychology in a thread about which album people prefer?

Do you not think that's a bit too much?

If people are trying to determine what made the difference between albums sales, then yes. Last time I looked the thread had become more about what made sales decline - don't look at me, I've been away lately! :lmao:

Nope, even if he had the same public persona in 1995 as in 1984 HIStory wouldn't have had a chance of selling like Thriller. Clearly demonstrated by the clear sales gulf between Off The Wall and Thriller - market forces is the major explanation for that alongside the variability of the perception of the quality of the product(s).

Market forces is the clear factor on album sales over public personal opinions towards an act. Only Michael's Thriller had that kind of reception by the public and it perfectly fit in with an economical recession in the United States which had morale plummeting faster than the Titanic. So, Reagan's Administration used Thriller and Michael for political gain which made headline news worldwide.

One thing about Thriller's sales that comes to mind is that when his hair caught fire in end of Jan 1984, Thriller sold 7million EXTRA copies in the 1st week of February 1984 alone in America. This had nothing to do with the product itself, but public reaction to the star. Public reactions to a star cannot merely be put down to 'i like him...he's wholesome...gorgeous...' as that was thought of him too with Off The Wall.

But the market force was perfect for thriller - if the economy had been buoyant then, I seriously doubt if Thriller's sales would've taken off as it did. Even with the videos. The videos would've helped, but the reaction and impulse to buy would've been less. The weak economy dampened American morale, but when Thriller's videos and the M25 performance were out...morale shot through the roof, people's minds were taken off the nation's problems and millions bought the flipping thing!

This is also the difference between thriller and Bad. The American economy was much stronger by 1988 and although Michael pulled out all the stops for bad with THAT tour which generated hysteria in America and around the world...the impulse to buy the album was less than Thriller's. American morale was much better in 1988 than 4 years earlier - we now know there is a link between impulse to buy and a downturn in moods.

In short, people spend more money on something that they feel will help lift their mood up. People spend less money when they are happy.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/b/2008/04/11/sad-people-spend-more-money-nsf-finds.htm

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23057223/

www.dbtechno.com/curiosity/2008/02/08/sad-depressed-people-likely-to-spend-more-money/

For a more indepth look at how ways of marketing and psychology work together to make commercial sales of every product go up and down:

http://www.consumerpsychologist.com/

Also, it is impossible to even try to verify that Michael lost X amount of fans and this led to a decline in album sales. Thee are no stats on this and it shouldn't be paraded around ressed up a fact when it's not. I'm aware Michael lost X amount of fans, BUT he also gained X amount of fans. :yes:

Market forces still is the biggest factor in commercial product sales of any kind.


Grrrr! Yada, yada, yada.....

But please answer yes to following question for that is the correct answer..

Is a large factor in the fact that HIStory sold considerably less than Thriller the fact that he had lost a lot of fans due to his increasingly bizarre image?

If people are trying to determine what made the difference between albums sales, then yes.

Well, I can honestly say that I for one don't give enough of a **** to go through psychological theory (which, let's face it, you can only fully understand if you've done the necessary training with a lisenced tutor as opposed to reading it from the interweb) to find out why not as many people bought one album over another.

Some people may differ, though.

But...all in all I'm sure everyone can agree that it pretty much comes down to 4 factors;

*Controversial change in appearence (I could understand why that could turn people off)

*Being publically accused of quite possibly the worst crime known to man (I could understand why that could turn people off)

*General decline in record sales. (I could understand why that could turn people off)

*Not as many people liked it (I could understand why that could turn people off).

Common sense answer. Case closed. All finished. Move on. No need for Melfi.

Back on topic...

Which do you like better Thriller or HIStory?

he lost a good percentage of his black fanbase when his skin turned white, especially in America.

Very true. Has anyone noticed the lack of black fans at his concerts after the Victory tour? If you watch any tour footage of MJ ranging from Bad to HIStory, you may spot a black person here or there in the crowds, but that's it. It's probably enough to count on one hand. Despite this, there were a lot of black fans in attendance at his show at Madison Square Garden in 2001.

I have no doubt that the scandals and ever changing appearance hurt the sales of HIStory. However, if he would have released HIStory before his career got a little looney, it probably would have sold more, especially in America.

Just my two cents. Both albums are great, though.

The Madison Square Gardens concert broadcast was the 2nd highest Black viewership in the United States - trumped only by Barack Obama. Loads of African Americans were at MSG when I was there - I was surrounded by them which was a novelty for me as there really aren't many black people where I've lived. :no2:

Michael still has a very sizable black fanbase in the United States. HIStory's promo campaign in the USA was not down to any one thing, but a combination of things including Michael shunning America which he did on TV the day or so before HIStory was released - "I don't care to live in America anymore!".

^^When did he say that? Is there a clip online somewhere?

Yeah, it's the interview he did with Lisa Marie. :cool:

Uh-oh, I'm on dodgy ground here so I'll try & word it carefully. What I mean is, although there's some truth in what you say. Many use being in a minority as an excuse.

"I failed because I'm black/gay/female" etc.

Even Mike used it for the relative failure of Invincible.



I agree it did. Gary will find lots of stats to prove otherwise, but he lost a good percentage of his black fan base when his skin turned white, especially in America.

Dodgy ground? :laughing: No worries though... You speak the truth ;)

The 'whole back to black' thing, during the Invincible era, I think really ticked off a lot of black folks in the states as they felt his public image wasn't usually aligned with the 'black community' and 'black issues'.

You must accept Gareth, for it is fact, that Jackson lost many fans due to his altered appearance and this led to lower sales.



I think people saw him as a 'freak' and it was less about the MJ many latched on to during the Thriller era. A lot of people (particularly in the black community) saw his changing appearance as him trying to distance himself from the black community, trying to look less black, etc.

I'm going to stop myself with the next comment I was getting ready to spit out... definitely dodgy ground ;)

Very true. Has anyone noticed the lack of black fans at his concerts after the Victory tour? If you watch any tour footage of MJ ranging from Bad to HIStory, you may spot a black person here or there in the crowds, but that's it. It's probably enough to count on one hand. Despite this, there were a lot of black fans in attendance at his show at Madison Square Garden in 2001.

I have no doubt that the scandals and ever changing appearance hurt the sales of HIStory. However, if he would have released HIStory before his career got a little looney, it probably would have sold more, especially in America.



As a black person, I think you have a heightened awareness of being the only spot on the cow ;) Especially in large crowds hahhaaa

I'm wondering if the small turn out had more to do w/ location and ticket pricing though :hmm:

[Side Note: This reminds me of one of Dave Chapelle's sketches about how terrorists never take black hostages... and all the black folks on the plane look around to see if there are other blacks around :laughing: Oh Lord... alright... back on topic :whistle: ]

I think in order to really understand the dynamic of the MSG performance you have to look at the demographic info for the area. The East Coast has a HUGE black population, NY city has a LARGE black population, and MJ still does have a LARGE black fan base in America...so no doubt they will support him if he makes himself available.

^^^The Black fans will support Michael in America if there is incentive for them to do so.

Ticket pricing and location impacts on demographic at concerts? Who knows, but it is entirely possible! In Europe, you won't see a MASSIVE crowd of Black people at concerts at all since the demography is predominantly white. Similar for many places around the world. The Victory tour was confined to the United States and 1 concert was in Canada - I know there was a lot of anger from the Black community during the Victory tour because THE biggest star was a Black man and they were being priced out of the tour by the greedy Jackson family and promotors. Michael got the flack for this even though he wanted lower ticket prices.

To answer the issue over numbers of black people at Jackson concerts after Victory, we'd have to look at the Bad tour concerts being held in a similar location to the Victory tour ones. The Dangerous and HIStory tours cannot be used as comparision since those tours never toured continental United States which has perhaps the biggest concentration of Black people compared to most or all of the Western world. Only Africa has a bigger concentration of Black people.

When Michael visited the Ivory Coast in the Dangerous era and South Africa for the HIStory tour, he had large numbers of Black people flocking to see him. The Western media distorted the 1992 Ivory Coast visit, but the African media didn't. Large numbers of Africans also attended the South African HIStory shows - they outnumbered whites as you would expect since whites are the racial minority over there. :yes:

Only Black attendence during Victory and Bad tours can realistically be compared for the United States. :cool: We cannot use Dangerous and HIStory tours to suggest Michael had fewer Black people supporting him. HIStory toured Hawaii, but how big is the Black community there? :hmm:

^^^ LOL
Yeah... very small population there in Hawaii outside of military folks.

Hate to say it, but Tony's right. Some of Michael's old black fan base (including my own family members) thought Michael lost it after "Thriller".

^^^There are no facts or figures for numbers of Black fans who deserted MJ at all anywhere in the world. All we have really have is a perception that Jackson has lost massive support from Black people largely based on...funnily enough, hearsay. We can also say that Jackson lost support from a lot of white people too, but even this isn't enough to explain precisely nothing.

Some Black people in America have been vocal about their feelings that MJ was no longer 'Black', but this in no way gives us an indication of how many really at all. Facts and figures on this simply don't exist.

It would be fair to suggest that support may well have gone up and down over the years since Thriller, BUT that is simply in general terms since this isn't a phenomenon exclusive to 'Black' communities at all. Michael gets some flack from 'White' communities too, but we have no numbers for this either.

MSG concert attendance and the TV broadcast in Black homes Stateside demonstrates the theory that Black support goes up and down. Obviously due to certain variable factors. We already ASSUME white support goes up and down, but no big deal is made of it whereas it is in the United States.

It is impossible to begin to quantify just how many people of any race 'deserted' Jackson. :yes: Comparing concert footage of crowds doesn't work either since two tours never touched the continental United States. America has a massive concentration of Black African Americans, possibly 150million or so of entire US population whereas the United Kingdom has a population of 54, 153, 898 White people, but only approximately 12-13,000 Black identified people in general. Even Europe with a population of 450million people has a smaller overall population of Black people in general to America.

http://www.irr.org.uk/statistics/population.html

To complicate matters still further, the Ivory Coast visit in the Dangerous era and the HIStory South African tour dates demonstrated Jackson still has a very sizeable Black following there. The United States may indicate a similar line:

From the New York Times newspaper article about Obama's speech being shown on US television. The article was called 'Obama's Speech is TV Hit.


Mr. Obama’s speech drew an especially high number of African-American viewers. Excluding sporting events, Nielsen said, the speech ranked second in black viewership among all programs over the last decade. Only a Michael Jackson special in 2001 did better.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/us...se&oref=slogin EDIT - Link no longer works, but I posted this when it actually DID work as replies to the thread will tell you. ;) The article was all about Obama's speech long before he was elected. :yes:

The MJ special was the MSG 30th Anniversary concerts. This was a boost for Michael as the popularly held belief is that the Black community had completely shunned Michael although no facts or figures had ever been used to support such a notion apart from personal opinion.

Side note: I'm sure Obama would once again get HIGH Black viewership on TV in future. ;) MJ's viewership amongst Blacks would still suggest there is some level of support there all the same. :cool: The problem with this is also that Black publications in the United States continued to support Michael - Vibe, Jet, Ebony, to name some. The NAACP were still supporting Michael as were other well-respected African Americans such as Rev. Al Sharpton (who was a friend of Mottola and said he wasn't racist!), Jesse Jackson, etc.

It's a moot point attempting to 'prove' Jackson significantly lost Black support since there's no facts or figures for anyone to claim it to be true. It seems to be more likely the trend goes up and down over time - not unreasonable.

^^^There are no facts or figures for numbers of Black fans who deserted MJ at all anywhere in the world.

If I've learned nothing else from Gene Hunt it's sometimes facts and figures or "official procedure" is bull**** in comparrison to gut feeling and what you see for yourself.

Of course, as a black American living in da ghetto, you have seen this, Gary, and you completely know what is happening there which is why that post was so helpful :yes:

Anyhoo...the MSG show may not be the best example to use as there were a bunch of young black artists on there that a ****load of young black kids would have been tuning in to see...because there were other artists on the bill, you can prove with facts and figures that they were all tuning in to see Michael Jackson as much as you can use facts and figures for numbers of black fans who deserted MJ at all anywhere in the world.

Facts and figures all over the place.... *yawns*

Not sure why all the facts and figures are so important to PG...they mean jack **** to a lot of people. :whistle:

^^^

Did you not sense the sarcasm?

No, I was meaning my husband's obsession with facts & figures. Hence the edit in my post. :wink:

Well, don't I feel like a ****ing idiot now...

I hate to encourage this (I really do)...but if there are no facts and figures to prove Michael has lost a substantial black fanbase, surely there's none to back up otherwise.

What the **** was this topic about originally anyway?

We are so off topic now that I should never ever be told to get back on topic again...

^^ If you keep taunting him, you know he's just going to post more facts and figures to annoy you. :wink:

^^^

I don't mind...I don't usually read them...

^^^There are no facts or figures for numbers of Black fans who deserted MJ at all anywhere in the world.

^^^ :huh: Dude there's no need for facts that MJ lost a large number of black fans just go around asking any black person how they feel about MJ and they will tell you....

Hate to say it, but Tony's right. Some of Michael's old black fan base (including my own family members) thought Michael lost it after "Thriller".

HA! Yea most even say he lost it after Bad


The 'whole back to black' thing, during the Invincible era, I think really ticked off a lot of black folks in the states as they felt his public image wasn't usually aligned with the 'black community' and 'black issues'.

:laughing: EXACTLY!

[Side Note: This reminds me of one of Dave Chapelle's sketches about how terrorists never take black hostages... and all the black folks on the plane look around to see if there are other blacks around :laughing: Oh Lord... alright... back on topic :whistle: ]

(:toofunny: I remember that sketch!)

I think in order to really understand the dynamic of the MSG performance you have to look at the demographic info for the area. The East Coast has a HUGE black population, NY city has a LARGE black population, and MJ still does have a LARGE black fan base in America...so no doubt they will support him if he makes himself available.

^^^Well Its been said that MJ's 30th had a large number of black people attending but I think to see the Jackson 5 but who knows...

We really need to get this thread back on topic now guys, seriously. Let's talk about the original subject rather than facts and figures, and MJ losing black fans, etc. That's straying a little off the subject.

Anyway:

"Thriller" is a more potent release than "HIStory".

Of course, as a black American living in da ghetto, you have seen this, Gary, and you completely know what is happening there which is why that post was so helpful :yes:


Wow.
Sorry... but that totally got me for some reason :lmao1:



What the **** was this topic about originally anyway?

We are so off topic now that I should never ever be told to get back on topic again...

Who the hell knows.
But what I do know is that your posts were effing HIGHlarious :toofunny: I had to go back and read them twice ;)

Facts and figures all over the place.... *yawns*

Not sure why all the facts and figures are so important to PG...they mean jack **** to a lot of people. :whistle:

^^^ That is like, my favorite word EVER. Thanks for posting it :cool:

Oh yeah... and Thriller again :wink:

Yeah, "Thriller" all day! :laughing:

Thriller 4 ever LoL!!!

Um... as a (half) black fan who knows other black fans, I can say that a lot of people stopped listening to him because they felt like his was abandoning his race. At the same time, his image stopped being 'fresh' after a while & all the scandal and such. It's a mixture of things.


HIStory. (I voted long ago, though. haha)

Oh absolutely! HIStory is his most peronal, intimate account of his life. And it's packed with timeless masterpieces. ....Can you tell it's my favourite album? :tongue:

Thriller. When he died everyone bought it again. You young folks just aren't qualified to say. It redefined the cultural fabric. You had to be there, to experience it. History wasn't bad but it was a non-event. No one says History redefined the cultural fabric.

I can't judge Woodstock because I wasn't there. You can't judge Thriller.

I've always had a thing for HIStory, presumably as it was the first MJ album I bought and the one I basically grew up with. I've long felt that the likes of the unreleased (as singles) 2Bad, This Time Around, D.S. and Tabloid Junkie would've made fine singles material for anyone other than MJ and his usual sky-high standards.

Even in terms of personal preference, though, it's a close-run thing... all of the Thriller tracks save Baby Me Mine and I think one or two more receive so much heavier listening from me than anything from HIStory's second disc. So Thriller gets the vote. And yes, I know HIStory's listed as my favourite above, but I'm including the first disc in that and anyway, irrationality's allowed for choosing a personal fave. :p

I liked all of Michael's albums except I wasn't crazy about BOTDF. I really don't care for remixed Michael Jackson music. That's okay for other artists. But the fans always expect new, original, material from MJ. I also don't care for other artists butchering his music as well. But in any case Thriller is a better album than HIStory in my opinion. True they both had hit songs. But every song on that 9-track Thriller album was amazing! You can hear the purity in Michael's vocals. They used "real" musical instruments and not synthesizers. I really felt his heart and soul in that album as well as in the Off The Wall album. The HIStory album was great and showed a different side of MJ focusing on political, social and moral issues. But unlike his first 3 solo albums: OTW, Thriller, and Bad, there was less of Michael's influence and more of other artists (w/ the exception of The Earth Song). The best Michael Jackson to me is pure and simple without all the background interference. But I still have the J5, Jacksons and MJ CDs minus a couple. :wub: